Curse

swordfisher · Mar 28, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I think one of the big problems (already touched on in this thread) is that many ele skill suffer from prohibitive cost, prohibitive cast time, and prohibitive recharge. All at once! Regardless of what the skill might actually do, it's so inflexible that it's rarely worth it. I see the Elementalist as an energy machine- I think they should be free to pump out 25 E Firestorms...if they can pay for them. After all, most of the time the restriction is not the recharge, but the strategic use of your energy and resources.

Elementalists either need DPS bread-and-butter skills, or they should just change the class name from Elementalist to Pragmatist. They'll do what they can -and that's no joke- but quit dreaming of the big damage life.

SnipiousMax · Mar 28, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

We're talking pvp here, and if SS outdamages an Ele, it isn't a problem with the skills, it's a problem with the idiot wamo you keep playing with.

Well aware.... however, I felt it was more appropiate to ask here, than to create a new thread titled "Hey Ensign, what do you think about...." somewhere else.

Eclair · Mar 28, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Well doing that would significantly change the way the game is played - it would also require a huge update to the UI and probably the game engine itself. In other words I don't think such a change is realistic.

Well, a quick fix would be to allow you to cast AoE spells on any target, not just hostile targets, kind of like how you can cast Balthazar's Aura on allies. You wouldn't have to change the game engine at all, and it would open up some interesting new ways for the elementalist to develop.

Insanity · Mar 28, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't like the idea of buffing wanding significantly, in fact I think it would serve to make things worse. The game needs more variety, not less, and making casters play more like the physical professions just blurs the lines even more. When I roll up an elementalist it's because I want to cast spells on people, not be a wand turret.

I wasn't suggesting buffing wanding in general. I was suggesting an Elementalist specific advantage using wands based on their ability to do more elemental damage. I understand that it would encourage "wand turreting", but it is a simple change that specifically addresses the concern raised without causing problems with skill interactions with other classes (as a buff to energy management skills might).

As another has mentioned, one could make the bonus dependent on the primary skill per the wand. (e.g., While using a Fire wand, a Pyromancer would get added wand damage.)

Just an idea. A rebalance of the entire skill tree might also work, but it will be a lot more painful for the metagame.

Insanity

Divineshadows · Mar 28, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Ward Against Elements: 10 energy
Ward Against Melee: 15 energy

These two skills always did seem backwardly priced to me. One negates one half of a damage type over time, while the other negates one third of the opposite damage type over time (though in a very different way). Add on top of this that the much more common damage type is the one that has the cheaper ward. Even the change you suggest to ward against elements still does not make it look attractive (for GvG), because the skill itself is a paradox. Most of the damage I think one would be looking to reduce with this skill would be AoE fire, water, and earth spells, and bunching up in a ward would not seem to help that situation. Oddly enough, ward against melee helps block some armor ignoring damage, but obsidian flame punches straight through ward against elements. The air spells are going to result in a net +18 armor instead of a net +24 armor. Is +18 armor against the threat of air spike enough to make this skill viable when you can only pick 64? My answer is no. Perhaps your change to ward against elements was with another game type in mind (HA)?

Good suggestions for change overall. Especially on the glyphs and attunements. These changes alone go a long way toward making the class more viable. I noticed Elemental Attunement was not on your list for reduced recharge. Is it too dangerous to allow this skill to be up 100% of the time due to the 80% cost rebate of using dual attunements?

Symbol · Mar 28, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

That list is pretty similar to the one I came up with (increased AoEs on the fire spells, faster chain, faster glyphs, etc). Of course now that Ensign said it, it's probably going to get implemented.

Heh, well anyway, only thing to add is that elemental attunement should have a reduced recharge too, perhaps not 30s, but 40-45 sec would be good. Also, lightning javelin is currently air's spammable. It may be better just to up the damage a bit (to 10...60) than to add the knockdown. Or you could make shock arrows not blow chunks I suppose...

icemonkey · Mar 29, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

I think, along the lines of what ensign said about non energy management ele elites: If the spell is an elite and is for damage/attacking it should not be allowed to cause exhaustion, thats such a screw over. But with Anet being in love with exhaustion, this may never happen.

Ensign · Mar 29, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Would you say that an Elementalist being outdamaged by an SS necro is a problem?

In PvE? Yes, SS is a problem. It's between the book trick and 55 monking on the short list of why PvE is a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

Well, a quick fix would be to allow you to cast AoE spells on any target, not just hostile targets, kind of like how you can cast Balthazar's Aura on allies.

The ritualist got an AoE nuke like that actually. The elementalist should get a few as well. It's an interesting mechanic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insanity

I understand that it would encourage "wand turreting", but it is a simple change that specifically addresses the concern raised without causing problems with skill interactions with other classes (as a buff to energy management skills might).

I can understand that concern. But I think if you look at the skill lists you'll see that a lot of that is unfounded. The skills with interesting effects, that would interact well with other professions are already used. The top elementalist energy management most certainly doesn't need a buff, it's patently ridiculous already (Ether Prodigy singlehandedly revived elementalists in competitive GvG), it's just that there's very little to spend all that energy on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insanity

Just an idea. A rebalance of the entire skill tree might also work, but it will be a lot more painful for the metagame.

You aren't going to add a second type of damage to the game without shaking things up quite a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Perhaps your change to ward against elements was with another game type in mind (HA)?

Nah, nothing that in-depth. It's like you said, it's a game of pick 64 and something has to be left on the bench - and this ward is rather paradoxical. I think that it's always going to be a rather narrow skill that only pops up in weird metagames.

You don't want to price skills so that they'll be attractive in any metagame. For example a skill like Rust is rarely used, but that has nothing to do with the power of the skill - it just doesn't do anything you want it to do. What's important is that those niche skills are priced aggressively so that when they are something you want you don't hesitate to take them over the cost. 10 energy on a ward is trivial for most characters, so that's how good it needs to be, no better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

I noticed Elemental Attunement was not on your list for reduced recharge. Is it too dangerous to allow this skill to be up 100% of the time due to the 80% cost rebate of using dual attunements?

Basically changing the normal attunements is safe, but Elemental Attunement is dangerous because it is *always* doubled up with one of the others - covered by it no less - and if both attunements stick it's the best energy management available. So unlike a regular attunement which has pretty ordinary (and much needed) emanagement uses for a typical elementalist, Elemental Attunement is always ridiculous if it sticks. Thus, while I'm ok with making a single Attunement something that can reasonably stand up to removal through a faster recharge, doubled attunements are *not* something that I think should have that property - as the danger of losing Elemental Attunement to removal is the *only* reason that skill isn't ridiculous.

Peace,
-CxE

Rey Lentless · Mar 29, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Ward against elements is annoying because of the nature of a ward and aoe, I agree with that. I agree with ensign's suggested price change too.

The ward does have it's bonuses. There's no rigor or warrior's cunning or attacks that bypass the ward.. the elemental armor is there and there's no getting around that armor bonus. Granted, you don't want to stand it a shower of aoes either, and that's it's inherent problem.. but as far as the armor goes.. you pretty guarentee yourself of getting that, there's no work around available like there is with ward against melee.

Other than it's problem of being a ward and guarding against a damage type that wants you to be in a small area... the ward's pretty decent. The real problem isn't the ward, is that there's no reason to use the ward.

Symbol · Mar 29, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Actually, despite you saying that flare type skills shouldn't be attractive, you've succeeded in making it exactly that. Flare + mark of rodgort is a extremely basic combo that does 47/51 dps (wo/w fast cast equip).

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 29, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Ward against elements is annoying because of the nature of a ward and aoe, I agree with that. I agree with ensign's suggested price change too.

The ward does have it's bonuses. There's no rigor or warrior's cunning or attacks that bypass the ward.. the elemental armor is there and there's no getting around that armor bonus. Granted, you don't want to stand it a shower of aoes either, and that's it's inherent problem.. but as far as the armor goes.. you pretty guarentee yourself of getting that, there's no work around available like there is with ward against melee.

Other than it's problem of being a ward and guarding against a damage type that wants you to be in a small area... the ward's pretty decent. The real problem isn't the ward, is that there's no reason to use the ward.

The other big problem with Ward Against Elements is how you can actually utilize it compared to Melee. Most of the time you're running Melee you don't actually have to camp in the ward. Instead, you can move in and out of it based on who's being attacked, which allows you a lot more mobility than you'd have if you huddled inside.

This is much tougher to do with a Ward Against Elements because you never know who an elementalist spell is going to hit, unless you happen to see that they're casting and pointing at you. Thus, you never know when you need to be inside the ward. You can huddle inside and sacrifice all of your mobility, or move in and out and accept that the eles are going to avoid targeting anyone who's already inside. This makes the ward less useful than a Ward Against Melee.

Of course, it's all moot since elementalist damage isn't scary, but if it were scary I think that would be one of the issues with the skill in practice.

Ensign · Mar 29, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

The real problem isn't the ward, is that there's no reason to use the ward.

Well that's a bigger problem, sure. But the skill does have some fundamental issues with it that aren't immediately obvious. Personally, I'm perfectly OK with there being skills that aren't good for reasons that aren't immediately obvious, as they're part of a learning curve.

There not being any real reason to ever use that ward, though...yeah, that's the real issue here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Actually, despite you saying that flare type skills shouldn't be attractive, you've succeeded in making it exactly that. Flare + mark of rodgort is a extremely basic combo that does 47/51 dps (wo/w fast cast equip).

Dude, that combo would still be utter trash for the exact same reasons it is now. Both of those skills would still be awful, and mixing them together wouldn't accomplish anything.

Now I know that combo is overlooked because it is such complete and utter shit, but there is a bit of truth to it - health degeneration does make damage a lot stronger because of how they set up into a short period of higher DPS pressure. It's not a terribly popular combo, but it is strong.

Anyway the actual combo is degen skill + damage skill(s). The one I like is Conjure Phantasm -> Lightning Orb -> Lightning Strike. Mark of Rodgort -> Flare is a terrible version of the above, but it's really simple and laid out for n00bs to pick up.

Peace,
-CxE

LightningHell · Mar 29, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

It's slightly better than Wanding + Mark of Rodgort.

JR · Mar 29, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

It's slightly better than Wanding + Mark of Rodgort.

I disagree. At least with wanding you don't have the embarrasment of having Flare on your bar. Not to mention actually spending energy to use it.

LightningHell · Mar 29, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I disagree. At least with wanding you don't have the embarrasment of having Flare on your bar. Not to mention actually spending energy to use it.

I take what I just said back.

Akathrielah · Mar 29, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

*The Air line is going to remain spikey. To be a competitive damage line, it needs that aggressively priced Chain Lightning, and another 1s cast, straight damage skill with an attractive recharge. This is a tricky line to adjust, because as mentioned simple, to the face damage effects are not things that you can price aggressively.

Peace,
-CxE

I'm just curious, why not drop the damage on the air spells, increase the armor penetration, and price the spells more agressively and bring the recharge inline?

It will change the nature of air line drastically, but would allow for elementalist to deal a significant amount without spike being a problem.

Something along the lines of:

Lightning Orb - 10 Energy 1 Cast 2 Recharge
@ 16 Air - 82 Damage + 40% Armor Pen = 124 dmg vs AL 60/ 101 dmg vs AL 80 / 82 dmg vs AL 100

Lightning Strike - 5 Energy 1/4 Cast 2 Recharge
@16 Air - 53 dmg + 40% Armor Pen = 80 dmg vs AL 60/ 65 dmg vs AL 80 / 53 dmg vs AL 100

Lightning Javelin - 5 Energy 1 Cast 2 Recharge
@16 Air - 53 dmg + 40% Armor Pen = 80 dmg vs AL 60/ 65 dmg vs AL 80 / 53 dmg vs AL 100

And so on and so forth.

Although Orb does slightly less damage, with the spells at a lower cooldown, you can be constantly casting solid damage dealing spells continuously.

Symbol · Mar 29, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Dude, that combo would still be utter trash for the exact same reasons it is now. Both of those skills would still be awful, and mixing them together wouldn't accomplish anything.

Now I know that combo is overlooked because it is such complete and utter shit, but there is a bit of truth to it - health degeneration does make damage a lot stronger because of how they set up into a short period of higher DPS pressure. It's not a terribly popular combo, but it is strong.

Anyway the actual combo is degen skill + damage skill(s). The one I like is Conjure Phantasm -> Lightning Orb -> Lightning Strike. Mark of Rodgort -> Flare is a terrible version of the above, but it's really simple and laid out for n00bs to pick up.

I've tried lightning orb + lightning strike + conjure. It's a good combo. But as you've set it up here, flare + rodgort will out dps it by a pretty healthy margin. What it doesn't do is spike, but you can do that with fireball. I don't see why it's shit, despite your (IMO kinda dogmatic declaration that both skills suck and will always suck). It seems like a pretty decent way to apply pressure while you wait for your big guns to recharge, though I know you want people to use immolate.

damocles · Mar 29, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I've tried lightning orb + lightning strike + conjure. It's a good combo. But as you've set it up here, flare + rodgort will out dps it by a pretty healthy margin. What it doesn't do is spike, but you can do that with fireball. I don't see why it's shit, despite your (IMO kinda dogmatic declaration that both skills suck and will always suck). It seems like a pretty decent way to apply pressure while you wait for your big guns to recharge, though I know you want people to use immolate.

With Conjure Phantasm on an Elementalist at 12 Illusion you can spread it around to 3 targets. With Flare + Mark of Rodgort combo you surely have higher have higher DPS on 1 target. While applying pressure is more about putting pressure on several targets IMO not on a single target, which is healed more easily. And the fact that Conjure Phantasm is more spammable than Mark, because of the high energy difference. I would vote for Conjure Phantasm anyday if you are running a high spec in Illusion for Distortion already.

About Immolate you didn't understand Ensign right. He said it's trash.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 29, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Don't forget that with Rodgort you're paying a ridiculous 25 energy and 20 second recharge for something that's just gonna get removed anyway. If they remove your Phantasm you haven't lost much, but if they remove your Mark of Rodgort you're basically out your entire combo and get to spend the next 20 seconds /dancing while you sponge up damage for your team's monks to heal.

Symbol · Mar 29, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

You people need to actually read the posts in this thread. I was referring to the proposed changes Ensign suggested. And guess what, MoR is 15E and 5S recharge, or 4E under twin attunements or 11E under one attunement. Removal is just not an issue.

My problem is that, with those changes, mark of rodgort + flare seems to be a better way of inflicting pressure than immolate, if you can spare the skill slot. And potentially MoR combos quite well with the other fire nukes, so it's not entirely a wasted slot.

Maybe the time burden required to continually cast flare balances it out...